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File:The Cabinet of Dr Caligari Holstenwall.jpg

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See w:Copyright Duration Directive#Films and photographs. It is not enough that the director has been dead for at least 70 years. You must also wait until several others have been dead for that duration. The last person to die seems to have been w:Giuseppe Becce, who composed the music. Stefan2 (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment That seems inconsistent with previous Commons discussions around this film specifically and German film stills in general. Since this question impacts multiple other files in Category:Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari, in other projects, and potentially from other films, I've opened a discussion at COM:VPC#Composers for silent films so we can get more clarity on this. hinnk (talk) 00:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    • As I understand it, the Copyright Duration Directive sets the same copyright term to the entire film, even if you don't use the soundtrack. However, I didn't realise that this was a silent film. I don't know if music for a silent film is counted as a part of the cinematographic work under the EU directive. I assume that the orchestra at the cinema theatre was meant to play the music when the film was shown. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

2. The term of protection of cinematographic or audiovisual works shall expire 70 years after the death of the last of the following persons to survive, whether or not these persons are designated as co-authors: the principal director, the author of the screenplay, the author of the dialogue and the composer of music specifically created for use in the cinematographic or audiovisual work.

The conclusion is inevitable: if Becce did indeed compose original music to accompany this film, he's considered one of its authors, even if his music wasn't recorded with the film. Omphalographer (talk) 01:05, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Omphalographer: Becce's music would not have been composed for use in the film, as that was not yet possible technically. It would have been composed to be performed alongside the film when it was shown. --Rosenzweig τ 18:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That seems like a distinction without a difference. Had the law been intended to only apply to music which was recorded as part of the film, it would have said so. (I'd be interested to see if some of the other translations of the Directive take a clearer stance.) Omphalographer (talk) 05:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep The composer is not relevant for a silent film. But this is not even the whole film, but apparently a frame of the film. The cinematographer would be the relevant person in German law for such a frame (for details see Pajz's comment in Commons:Deletion requests/File:Greta-Garbo-and-Jaro-Furth-in-the-film-Joyless-Street-1925-142462321702.jpg). The cinematographer of this film was Willy Hameister (1899–1938). --Rosenzweig τ 18:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Based on that deletion request, it seems that:
  • to use the film as a whole (w:File:The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari (1920).webm), you need to ensure that all of the film people have dead, i.e. you have to wait until Becce has been dead for at least 70 years (per Article 2.2 of Directive 2006/116/EC), but
  • a single frame is not a film work but a photograph, so you need to wait until the cameraman (in this case w:Willy Hameister) has been dead for at least 70 years but you can ignore the death years of the four film people.
This information should probably be documented somewhere on COM:GERMANY so that it can easily be found in the future.
Now a question: Does Article 10.1 of Directive 2006/116/EC require you to verify that all cameramen have been dead for at least 70 years if you wish to use a pre-1995 film as a whole? In Sweden, that article in the directive seems to have the effect that you need to verify that lots of additional people, such as all animators of an animated film, have been dead for at least 50 years, if the film was made before 1995. --Stefan2 (talk) 21:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware of any court decision about this. § 137f (1) UrhG, first sentence, does say that the old rules (before July 1, 1995) still apply if the new rules would shorten the duration of the term of protection. COM:Germany#Anonymous and pseudonymous works calls this the old method and the new method. Before the mid-1995 changes, the duration of the term of protection of a film was (I think) determined by the life span of all Miturheber (co-authors; § 8 UrhG). There was no exact definition who these co-authors of a film were. Germany's highest court (BGH, Federal Court of Justice) has decided that the cinematographer of the film Das Boot was a co-author of the film and is entitled to additional payment, see de:Jost Vacano#Rechtsstreit wegen Nachvergütung für „Das Boot“. This was about remuneration (payment) and § 32a UrhG though, I'm not sure if it has any implications for § 8 UrhG and § 137f (1) UrhG, first sentence. Probably that's another thing for the courts to decide. --Rosenzweig τ 23:37, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep agree with Rosenzweig. --Carlosmarkos2345 talk 18:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]


Kept: as per above discussion. --Yann (talk) 09:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

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